Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland

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Irish cricket lists

Hi everyone. Hope you all are well. If anyone you have some time then please give your input at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of international cricket five-wicket hauls on Irish cricket grounds. Thanks. Störm (talk) 17:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Recognising editors working on Irish content

Hi all! As you might know, I work for the local Irish affiliate of the Wikimedia Foundation - Wikimedia Community Ireland. Part of our mission is to support all editors in Ireland, and to represent the unique challenges and issues we might face on various Wikimedia projects, as well as encouraging more people in Ireland to edit!

To that end Antiqueight did a bit of digging on what barnstars or other on-Wiki awards are out there that we could give to people working on improving, deepening, and widening the coverage of Irish content on Wikipedia. First of all, she discovered the The Ireland Barnstar of National Merit, which has only been used a handful of times. She has also created this Irish barnstar:

	The Irish Barnstar
	Thank you for your hard work on Irish topics...

Are these something that the WikiProject would be interested in using - in particular to welcome or recognise new and active editors who are making a difference to Irish content? Does anyone have any thoughts? If this is something we'd like to start using, do we want to come up with rough criteria, particularly for the National Merit barnstar? The WikiProject Women writers has the "Mary Wollstonecraft Award" they give out, so there is precedent for such Project based recognition. Smirkybec (talk) 12:06, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

I've seen a few around for other "nationalities"/national-interest topics, so nice to have an Irish one, too. Bastun^{Ėġá���βáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:00, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Bastun! Should I document it somewhere, so that people can find it and/or use it? I can ask around to see where other WikiProjects houses these things, and perhaps record those who have received them and when? Smirkybec (talk) 16:10, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

FAR for Order of St Patrick

I have nominated Order of St Patrick for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 21:23, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Shorter infoboxes for ministers

Following a discussion at Template talk:Infobox officeholder#Test cases using subterm and suboffice fields for cabinet/committee posts, I've begun abbreviating the infobox for ministers and ministers of state. I have my own before and after examples here, following testcases for American and Canadian politicians created by Connormah.

The rationale is that infoboxes are meant to be neat summaries of the article and the individual, rather than showing detailed political succession, which is available on the linked ministerial pages. At the moment, some infoboxes go down the full length of the article, and in the case of some ministers of state who moved around departments, are noticeably longer than the body of the article. Predecessor/Successor boxes are relevant for top-level positions. Precise dates of entry into ministerial office is also relevant for an incumbent minister. In the case of ministers of state, the changing nature of their roles and responsibilities make succession awkward to account for succinctly. Listing departments for ministers of state also usefully shows when they serve in multiple departments, e.g. Damien English.

I'll be doing these in a very piecemeal way over the coming months while working on other WP projects, rather than a wholesale series of edits over a few days, so welcome any thoughts to what works best. My current model is:

• Taoiseach or Tánaiste fields to be left as is.
• One incumbent cabinet position to be left as is (that includes Taoiseach or Tánaiste, so I've listed Varadkar's current ministerial post only in the summary list)
• Then all ministerial posts listed in a group
• Then all junior ministerial departments listed in a group.

—Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:41, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with this proposal. If the issue is infobox length, the use Collapsed sections for certain offices. I'm not sure if following US offices is suitable for the Irish system. As we follow the Westminster system, the UK would be a more suitable role model, and I don't see any evidence of use there. I don't see any reason why not to include full dates plus predecessor and successor, it's only 3 lines of info. If you want to trim it, I would suggest removing the 'Taoiseach' line, which is not really needed. As for Ministers of State, well they are different and this proposal could work for them. Spleodrach (talk) 15:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

The infoboxes aren't supposed to be neat summaries, they're supposed to present information. Presenting less information doesn't seem like an improvement. I agree that Taoiseach could be removed. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:05, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes they are – see MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Number 57 08:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with the proposal. Infoboxes of particularly long-tenured politicians can spiral into walls of text. It's not so much about more or less information as it is how concisely the information is delivered. I think the office of Taoiseach and Tanaiste should be kept separate because of the importance of those offices, but for politicians who have held several ministries, this is a good method of displaying the information that's more concise than the alternative. CeltBrowne (talk) 17:52, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. Canada is a parliamentary system though, and it's also being used for Israeli ministers, another parliamentary system (examples in the linked discussion for the Officeholder Infobox itself above, e.g. Tzachi Hanegbi, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer). That discussion dates from February 2021 only, so it's recent enough as an innovation. It's not so much the length, as what information is the interested reader going to want to know at a glance when they are on Micheál Martin's or Frances Fitzgerald's pages. More likely a summary of ministerial positions, rather than also who held each of their positions before and after them. The succession boxes at the end of the page have that information in any case. I do think this proposal works particularly well for Ministers of State, which is where I started, before considering that it should work just as well for government ministers. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:48, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

A further comment. I think collapsed infoboxes are worse than the status quo ante. With a goal of clear presentation of pertinent information, it's not good that certain of the older positions would be hidden by default. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 12:12, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Might we proceed with Ministers of State at least? As Spleodrach said, they are different, and for a number of reasons I think the current approach doesn't work for them. Take my Damien English testcase, which identifies both of his current departments, and each of his previous departments. As Number 57 mentioned, Infoboxes are meant to give information at a glance, rather being comprehensive, so the Wikipedia Manual of Style would lean towards adoption of this generally, but I'm not planning to make any changes to government ministers based on this limited discussion. —Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:22, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd support that. They are not actual ministers legally, nor members of Government, not even "super-juniors", and their roles tend to change, and their actual functions, even by their own accounts, vary from material to "who's that?", so I think we should down-weight the long info-trails. All data can be within the body text anyway, and we're really trying not to do CV's. SeoR (talk) 20:40, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Iveagh Gardens How is it supposed to work when a Minister of State is assigned to two or more government departments? Spleodrach (talk) 14:14, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Spleodrach I actually think this is a great example of why it works well for them, it shows the simultaneous assignment to multiple departemts. See the examples I have for Damien English or Aodhán Ó Ríordáin. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 08:39, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Milltown Malbay (Miltown?)

At the Talk page, a couple of people have asked if the article title should be "Miltown", single L. Seems reasonable: sources for the "Milltown" spelling include logainm (which has Miltown as an alternative spelling) and OpenStreetMap. Otherwise, "Miltown" seems to predominate. Declangi (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

"The Place-Names of County Wicklow"

Today I got an email list from a Dublin collectable's dealer who has a first come first served list with the 7 volumes of Liam Price's "The Place-Names of County Wicklow". Really useful for county toponymy and lots of interesting history. If you are interested, just email me and I'll pass on the list, and hope the lot is still available. Only €16 (+€2 +postage): in 1988 I paid IR£32 for my set!! ww2censor (talk) 17:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)