Hi Miss-Pronunciation, see my response on Mike's talk page. Will look through your edit and we can discuss then on the article's talk. Welcome by the way. Great to have someone with so much knowledge on board. Ceoil (talk) 20:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed and highly interesting note on my talk, it took me a few reads to absorb it all, really fascinating stuff. Am currently looking at my available sources to hand, and will incorporate some of your points as I work through. I think I've expressed elsewhere that I am a huge fan of the album, and of the busking tour recordings, and very open to working with you and helping to incorporate suggestions, and correct factual errors or highlight misstatements by others involved (researching further in last few days, your bang on re both the reasons for Mick's leaving...and related...why drum machines were added), or at least give counterweight to some of the opinions currently in the article.
- But, there are two caviates: wiki needs to adhere to its Reliable Sources policy, so blogs, personal websites, and amazon reviews are out, though I, being a sad person, have amassed a large archive on the album, so all is not lost. Secondly, being neutral is not the same as presenting all points of view with equal weight. We need to balance critical views in proportion to the amount of views, ie there will be no whitewashing, just a fair and broadly sourced consensus view reflected on the wiki article. I hope all this is not too stressful for those involved, and that we can quickly work towards some sort of resolution. Anyway and later. Ceoil (talk) 18:51, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
Re what do we do next? I'm not sure how able you are to follow work on the page and the mechanics of the software; wiki is a nightmare even or old hands like me. I'll presume you know nothing, so suggest the following
- Help me on the article talk to itemize challenges to article text..use bullet points by starting each point with a paragraph break started with a *, eg
- point 1
- point 2
- Use the page history to follow changes
- Give feedback on the article talk as to choices.
- Continue to post on my talk on context as to issue we discuss, I was a punk in 1986 aged 13, this was the first punk album I bought, drawn by the album sleeve!!!!; its "fascinating" stuff.
Unfortunately, as involved, its prob not best if you edit the article directly, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest is pretty harsh, and you might be unfortunate to find some prck of a new wiki admin that will block you if he see's slant in your editing, and also if you switch account, there are ways this can be spotted. So be careful. However, CIO is mostly overwritten by Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons (I know both are leaglise and mumbo jumbo in ways, but there for good reason...the balance between preserving reputation vs keeping out promo guff (which we get A LOT OF from corporations) is a fine one, but instead work with me. I will back you up if difficulties, however, and if you ever get blocked, god forbid, msg on talk as an ip, or use the email user functon to email me, and I will get it sorted. Ceoil (talk) 22:47, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
I spent the best part of today (what else is there to do in a lock-down, wifey in NYC with parents) reading through archives incl those of rock's back pages, NME, etc. In almost all cases, what you are saying turns out to be true; I suspect what has happened is that most, if not nearly all, music journalists are lazy, and tend to repeat things they have heard before, true or not, just to fulfill copy, and are not even remotely objective or investigative, and so what started out as one perosns point of view, via Chinese whispers, later becomes taken as fact. While I wont be asking you to vet the page per our policy on WP:INVOLVED,(more word salad, sorry), can you look through again, and chat on remaining gaps etc on my talk. Again there will be no whitewashing, but I think we are getting further towards the truth. Hope you are staying safe, later, Paul. Ceoil (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
- ps, am probably alone in this, but 3 card trick is my favourite from the album, and their gigs at the time.. I wonder was it ever considered as a single choice. I notice in the 1985 footage, Simonon is back and playing a bass line that sounds distinctly his own. Ceoil (talk) 17:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Cut The Crap...
Hopefully some fresh creative thinking will be arrived at once this virus is in check, also that peoples priories are turned towards making this a better, less aggressive world. Ceoil, I don’t have the time to study the Wikipedia ways however you’ll quickly realise how ridiculous this Cut The Crap page is once given the proper facts. Unfortunately Wikipedia is relying solely on the words of a mediocre road crew, ex-groupies, hangers-on and auxiliary persons, none of which had any authoritative involvement in the management, artwork or recording of Cut The Crap; whilst the 3 new group members quoted have ongoing grievances to promote. Wikipedia are using various interviews as facts which in reality are a mixture of hearsay, emotions, assumptions and spite. It is not encyclopaedic; thus on this how can Wikipedia be taken seriously. We are ready for a fast competing information platform that really delivers. Meantime as you represent the interests of Wikipedia, please clarify to the young music students who ask me about Cut The Crap when discussing albums of interest particularly of its Wikipedia page. 1. Noted that albums like operational surgery are carried out by teams of people, how come the production on Cut The Crap is criticised as substandard (mainly by hack music journalists) when this Rhodes production team includes 2 outstanding Grammy Award winning engineers. Surely these top professionals would not proudly put their names onto an inferior piece of work. (Howie Weinberg a multiple times Grammy Award Winner, see his Wikipedia album credits including Cut The Crap); Tim Young won a Grammy Award for his engineering work on a Beatles album , Simon Sullivan has had several hit records, even Kevin Whyte the assistant engineer on this album has had scores of top albums to his credit. They all happily credit Cut The Crap. 2. The music students also want to know, seeing This is England is considered a great record-production why not the rest of Cut The Crap as its part of the same production. 3. If Cut The Crap saw the Clash as no longer credible, these young students ask who were then considered credible. Probably by the same bunch of self opinionated hack journalists (the students comment). Regarding the album artwork, google Eddie King the Clash, it would show his Clash connection. Note! Sheppard grudgingly credits Rhodes with having production ideas way ahead of its time (found tucked away halfway down page 353 in the paperback edition of Pat Gilberts’ book The Clash). I will soon be entering many of these referenced items into the Cut The Crap page. Be well, Miss-Pronunciation 12th April 2020
- For the record I have come to the same conclusion re "mediocre road crew, ex-groupies, hangers-on and auxiliary persons", and trimming as we speak, frankly with one disgruntled person especially in mind. I haven't absorbed all of your screed yet, hold on. And to clarify, I am especially interested in giving Eddie King credit, but have been a bit lazy this weekend, though I take your concerns seriously. The album's sleeve art is an all time classic, up their with Lou Reed's Rock and Roll animal in its immediacy and viseralness, if you ask me. As I said I bought it randomly as a teenager because of the slieve, and now here I am 20 years later still obsessed with punk. Ceoil (talk) 20:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)