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Grand Principality of Moscow
More correct and consistent than "Grand Duchy of Moscow" and also supported by http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/393443/Grand-Principality-of-Moscow is "Grand Principality of Moscow". Imperium Romanum Sacrum (talk) 11:20, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Nice catch, SuperJew. Apologies for pinging you on the Sabbath but, hopefully, you will accept this as a good faith attempt to circumvent editing your talk page directly in order to address this issue now rather than risk forgetting to do so. I sincerely hope I haven't caused any offence.
In the context, the reference to the Godunov family should have a wikilink to a Godunov family page. As it's been tagged for disambiguation for a considerable amount of time, rather than one editor after another using precious time trying to find the (non-existent) page, I've created a 'wishlist' red link as I don't have the time to develop the relevant page right now.
If anyone wishes to revert my edit, feel free to do so. I just think it would be more useful to create even a stub than leave the link as it stands for years to come. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Tributary of Golden Horde
- Wikipedia encourages you to be BOLD Wikipedia:Be bold (WP:BOLD) can be explained in three words: "Go for it". The Wikipedia community encourages users to be bold when updating the encyclopedia. Wikis like ours develop faster when everybody helps to fix problems, correct grammar, add facts, make sure wording is accurate, etc. So why don't you make yourself useful and "update it" Alexis Ivanov (talk) 02:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- You are thinking wrongly then, may I inquire you on the definition of WP:HOUNDING which is "Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually (but not always) the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Wikipedia unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing.", I didn't do any of that when I came here, I simply encouraged you to do the edit yourself, since Wikipedia encourages you to be WP:BOLD. You also need to Assume good faith when there are people helping you out on Wikipedia editing guidelines. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 02:59, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Ah! More ridiculing and sarcasm from the user has been reacting to all of my contributions for the past several days! And nice try, misquoting the Wikipedia policy to me. I am well aware of it without the quotes, which makes it a lot easier for me to recognize when you pull a quote from another page. It seems like the nuance has been lost on you (if I assume good faith), OR you have purposefully misquoted (if I assume bad faith). "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia." You haven't succeeded in intimidating me, but you have definitely been caught in violation of the policy. I find it interesting that the only place that you haven't WP:HOUNDed me is on the WP:ANI.--BoguSlav 03:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- There was no ridicule or sarcasm.
>from the user has been reacting to all of my contributions for the past several days
And the same user doing edits in other articles in Wikipedia. Are you implying users are not able to warrant other users advice in time of needs.
>And nice try, misquoting the Wikipedia policy to me.
Where did I misquote it, let me fix it for you.
>I am well aware of it without the quotes
Just making sure that you know you can go ahead and be WP:BOLD
>which makes it a lot easier for me to recognize when you pull a quote from another page.
Yes and post the same page here, did you expect me to hid the Wikipedia editing guidelines from you.
>"Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia." You haven't succeeded in intimidating me, but you have definitely been caught in violation of the policy.
I actually haven't valuated it, and thank you for putting the rule again, in fact I actually didn't single out you out of other editors, I didn't came here to confront you nor inhibit your work, in fact I have done the opposite, I encouraged you to do the work and be WP:BOLD, if you don't want my help you can say it. I assumed good faith and gave you the tools.
>I find it interesting that the only place that you haven't WP:HOUNDed me is on the WP:ANI
I never hounded you, per the rule. In the Cossack articles you inisiated the disucssion, and the Grand Duchy I gave you tool and recommendation on what to do plus encouraging you to be bold and not to wait on other users. You gave a solid reason for the fact that Muscovy was a tributary state of the Ulus of Jochi, so why not edit Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- There was no ridicule or sarcasm.
The flag at right was created and uploaded by Лобачев Владимир; it lists no source and states it is possibly a variant. The flag was added to this page by Kammiejr in February 2015, but then removed by Altenmann with the explanation, "Please don't add flags of unknown origin." The flag was re-added to the page by Alexis Ivanov in January 2016. It was removed by Azgar on April 18th with the explanation, "fantasy variant." It has now been re-added by Sigehelmus.
- This is a fantasy variant, Muscovy had no official flag at all. The added variant is just a christian banner used by Ivan IV in 1552, 5 years after he proclaimed himself Tsar (Imperor). Refer to the mentioned source Azgar (talk) 08:30, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
- Russians did not know the West European concept of the flag until Tsar Alexis. The "flags" of the Russian knyazes and tsars were rather portable icons, something intermediate between the carroccio and the vexillum. It represented neither the knya/tsar nor the country, but protected (in the Christian sense) the army in the battle. The above-mentioned icon banner was ;used particularly during the war with the Khanate of Kazan in 1552.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:16, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
- Given the info provided, I support keeping the flag with clarification of it being a banner of Ivan IV, with a note added its particular/famous usage during the war with the Kazan Khanate.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 16:14, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
If the banner was used by Ivan IV in 1552, then it definitely should not be used here. The article dates the end of the GDM as 1547, and Ivan IV is covered in the Tsardom of Russia article. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 16:42, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
The link cited here clearly says that "К царствованию Алексея Михайловича относится первое упоминание о государственных цветах и государственном флаге России. " (state banners as colors are first mentioned during the reign of Aleksey Mikhailovich (1629-1676), ie at times when Muscovy was already a tsardom rather than principality. The same res says that various Christianity-symbolic flags were used by various Russian armies before. But they were of widely various designs and they were not standard state banners. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:39, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Citations for Grand Duchy
The article has two citation by "The Grand Duchy of Moscow":
Plokhy, Serhii (2006-09-07). The Origins of the Slavic Nations: Premodern Identities in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9781139458924.
Isham, Heyward; Pipes, Richard (2016-09-16). Remaking Russia: Voices from within. Routledge. ISBN 9781315483078.
Citation  I did a search for "Grand Duchy" inside the book's text, and found six instances: pages 85, 87 and 114 have references to "Grand Duchy of Lithuania", page 299 "Grand Duchy of Ruthenia", pages 88 and 109 has "Grand Duchy" on its own - though in the case of page 88, the sentence is "Grand Duchy... as the Grand Principality of Muscovy was officially considered to be".
I did a search for "Grand Principality" and found five instances: page 88 "Grand Principality of Muscovy", pages 100, 101 and 109 "Grand Principality of Rus", and pages 111 "Grand Principality of Moscow".
Citation  I did a search for "Grand Duchy" inside the book's text, and found one instance "the grand Duchy of Muscovy". I also did a search for "Grand Principality", but the example I found was "the grand principality of Lithuania".
My conclusion is that citation  does not support the case that the entity was called the "Grand Duchy of Moscow", and citation  is weak evidence for it being called "the grand Duchy of Muscovy". I think both citations should be removed as not providing clear support for the text they are cited for.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
- No comments on those sources, though I'd say that the entity wasn't called this way. This is rather a modern English name coined by modern historians. It is a question of how to translate knyaz/knyazhestvo into English. While "principality" may be more prevalent (e.g. it is used in E. Britanica and in the Cambridge History of Russia), Google Books still gives a few ghits for "duchy" before 2000.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 20:56, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Terms for ancient Moscovia
Since the term Muscovite Rus' was deleted here, i want to say that i hope that this move wasn't done because of destructive ambitions and motives.
Very important suggestions for this article. First of all Moscovia was Rus' land. Grand Principality of Moscow is the right term and not Grand Duchy of Moscow. Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/place/Grand-Principality-of-Moscow Moskovskoye Velikoye Knazhestvo ( Великое Княжество Московское). Like Київське князівство were translated into "Principality of Kiev" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Principality_of_Kiev&oldid=500060867, https://www.britannica.com/place/Suzdal, Suzdal, into Suzdal Principality (Suzdalskoye Knyazhestvo)https://www.britannica.com/place/Suzdal, Галицко-Волинскоє князство were translated into (?Kingdom?) of Galicia–Volhynia or Principality of Galicia–Volhynia Kingdom_of_Galicia–Volhynia
Also Muscovite Rus' is a common term, because it was in Rus' lands. Not only that Russia evolved out of it and Russian culture survived because of Muscovy, Muscovite Rus' and Grand Principality of Moscow should be in the introducing sentence because the term Russia evolved out of Rus'. https://www.britannica.com/place/Grand-Principality-of-Moscow.
Let's look at this article and it's formulation: The Kingdom or Principality of Galicia–Volhynia  (Old East Slavic: Галицко-Волинскоє князство, Ukrainian: Галицько-Волинське князівство, Latin: Regnum Galiciae et Lodomeriae), also known as the Kingdom (?why Kingdom?) of Ruthenia Kingdom_of_Galicia–Volhynia ( btw: Kingdom is a completely invented addition to the Galicia region, Волинскоє князство does not mean Kingdom ) The term Великое Княжество is translated here in this Moscow article into Grand Duchy of Moscow, Волинскоє князство is translated in the Galicia–Volhynia Wikipedia article into Kingdom and the same Old East Slavic term is translated into Principality of Kiev in the Kiev article. Something is very very wrong with all of this.
The term Kingdom of Ruthenia for Principality of Galicia–Volhynia was not used at all and it is mentioned anyway in the Wikipedia article. Muscovy Rus' for the "Grand Principality of Moscow" is much more common, accepted and more precise (not latinized) and should not be used? That does not make sense. It should be named here. Otherwise many other articles need to be revised soon. --220.127.116.11 (talk) 14:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
The same words/terms like Великое Княжество should not have different translations in the different articles about Rus' lands, in one article it's Kingdom, others name it Principality and here it's for a couple of years Duchy.--18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:41, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Kingdom of Ruthenia is called like that because of King Danylo (Daniel of Galicia), who was crowned by a papal archbishop in Dorohochyn 1253 as the first King of Ruthenia --Roman Popyk (talk) 15:03, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Waiting for arguments....
....why the sourced version on 6th january 2020 was changed by Wikipedia editors:
Moscovian Rus, Grand Duchy of Moscow, Moscovia or Grand Principality of Moscow (Russian: Великое Княжество Московское, Velikoye Knyazhestvo Moskovskoye, also known in English simply as Muscovy from the Latin: Moscoviae) was a Rus' principality of the Late Middle Ages centered around Moscow, and the predecessor state of the Tsardom of Russia in the early modern period.
Hope and wait for very strong arguments. I understand that everyone makes mistakes.
--22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:36, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Waiting for arguments from both Wikipedia emplyooe - i suspect that the motives could be counterproductive. I hope its not the case. Like i said the flag is not correct and important historical names are missed. It cannot stay as it is now.--126.96.36.199 (talk) 01:15, 8 January 2020 (UTC)