|WikiProject Christianity||(Rated Stub-class, Low-importance)|
If religious formalism is going to redirect here, it shouldn't just be about Christianity (I got here from Confucius). Alternatively, Religious Formalism should have its own page that links here. JsePrometheus (talk) 18:17, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Simplifying the first paragraph
I made substantial changes to this article. I believe these make the article tighter, but some discussion is warranted.
Cultural Christian is broad term describing nominal Christians, individuals who would not generally be described as being active in their faith yet who identify themselves as Christian, were raised in a Christian family or community, or who adopted Christianity at some point in the past but have since exhibited less frequent or nonexistent practice of the religion. It is usually used in a negative sense and is often a term to describe someone whose understanding of Christianity is seen as underdeveloped, relative to a conceptual reference.
I rewrote to
Cultural Christian is a broad term describing individuals who identify themselves as Christian, but who generally would not be described by others as active in their faith. The term is usually used prejoratively by other Christians to describe individuals whose spiritual understanding they see as underdeveloped or superficial.
My reasoning being that the significant attribute of a cultural Christian is that they believe they are Christian, but that the one who is using the term to describe him does not consider them practicing. My (admittedly anecdotal) experience is that people who were raised as Christians and do not consider themselves to be Christians would be called "non-Christians", and not "cultural christians," even if they happened to listen to Christian music, etc.
I've personally never heard this term used by a non-Christian, but I'll allow that it is possible....
- Is there a term for non-believers from a Xtian background who celebrate Santa day and Bunny/egg day? These might be comparable to "Secular Jews". Or maybe pagans??? Fourtildas 07:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Dropping the paragraph about ethnic Jews
I have difficulties with the second paragraph, as I don't know how the term ethnic Jew compares. Judaism appears (from my outsider's perspective) to have a much more complicated and nuanced sense of identity than Christianity does. "Cultural Christian" is mostly a term rejecting Christians whose beliefs or practices are somehow not up to snuff, but an ethnic Jew can mean any number of things, or nothing at all. (See Who is a Jew?.) Because ethnic Jew doesn't seem to have a clear definition, I don't think it is illustrative to compare cultural Christian to the term. I've decided to drop the section entirely for now.
There is a particular form of cultural Christianity that acquires a very ethnic character. For instance, several Irish, Spanish, Italians and others may declare themselves proudly Catholic because of their ethnicity, while totally rejecting the official doctrinal positions of the Roman Catholic Church. This is a peculiar form of tribal Christianity that is a matter of concern for the Church because it is purely based on nationalism and tribalism, while having no clearly defined character in terms of institutional loyalty and theological faith. ADM (talk) 05:10, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree. It is a very similar situation in my ethnic country of Turkey as well. Most Turks, particularly among younger and middle-aged generations, are not religious, compared to the elderly. However there is still a pride in being Muslim. It is interesting to see Turkish Muslims drinking alcohol and dressing openly, but still expressing a tie to their Muslim heritage. Fasting for instance is still widespread during the holy month of Ramazan, despite people being largely unreligious during the rest of the year. Alcohol is usually abstained from in Ramazan as well, by those who would otherwise indulge. Personally I am a Turkish Atheist but I still enjoy seeing the Muslim parts of Turkish culture. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Difference between "cultural Christian" and Christian culture
Christian culture is just that, the culture associated with Christian nations. The term "Cultural christian" otoh is a propaganda term, apparently used by fundamentalist Christians who believe you are not a Christian simply because you claim you are. You must embrace Lordship salvation and live on a principle of "WWJD" to qualify, or at least you need a "personal relationship with Jesus". This is clearly an extremist view of Christianity. For most of the history of the Christian religion (about a millennium), being a "cultural Christian" was the norm, i.e. being baptized and going to mass was sufficient, and having a "personal relationship with Jesus" was considered Christian mysticism on the brink of blasphemy. What makes this more complicated in the light of WP:SYNTH is the evidence that the same term is also used for propaganda by the naive brand of pop-atheism advocated by Dawkins et al. Which presents us with the weird situation that both extremes, Christian fundamentalism and ideological atheism, uses a single propaganda term for opposite ends. If this article is going to stand, it will need to be based on solid, scholarly secondary literature exploring this. --dab (𒁳) 12:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
- The term "cultural religion" has recently become popular in the sociology of religion to describe this phenomena, particularly in Northern Europe. See "The Rise of 'Cultural Religion' in European Christianity: Learning from Poland, Northern Ireland, and Sweden," by N.J. Demerath for example. In a more recent book Phil Zuckerman uses Demerath's notion of cultural religion to describe the religion of a majority of Swedes and Danes (based on a year of intense qualitative research]. See Society without God. I have yet to read Demerath's article, but Zuckerman (p. 155) defines cultural religion as "the phenomenon of people identifying with historically religious traditions, and engaging in ostensibly religious practices, without truly believing in the supernatural content thereof." Many of the Scandinavians he spoke to call themselves Christian, baptize their children, marry and bury in the church, celebrate the basic Christian holidays, consider the stories of the bible as part of their cultural heritage and believe that basic Christian ethics are good to follow (love thy neighbor type stuff). But they do not believe in God or anything else that might be considered supernatural. I wonder if both the Fundamentalist pejorative and the atheist term of self-identification don't actually fit this same broad definition? Though I note that both Zuckerman and Demerath appear to use "cultural religion" and not "cultural Christianity" specifically (Zuckerman might have used the latter term in the book, I'll check).Griswaldo (talk) 14:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- I see "cultural Christian" used in two distinct ways. The more usual is applied by people of all viewpoints, to those who self-identify as Christian without accepting the reality of the resurrection etc.. Rarer, and more contentious, is its use by one group of Christian extremists as an insult applied to another group of Christians.
- Unfortunately, while the former is commoner, the latter generates more heat and is easier to reference, so has been given more space in the article. Maproom (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- And now I see that User:P4ulxh4 has added a paragraph to the lead, asserting that the latter view is correct. I find this sad.
- I am a cultural Christian myself. I do not believe in the resurrection etc., and I have certainly not devoted my life to Christ; but I respect Christians and what they stand for, and I sometimes self-identify as Christian. If anyone calls me a cultural Christian, that is accurate, and not at all insulting. But most of this article is Christians calling other Christians "cultural Christian" as an insult. I consider this both inaccurate and un-Christian. Maproom (talk) 20:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
An editer removed my edit without giving a convincing reason, he claim that my edit was "of extreme minor significance for topic of article" it's trivial to mention this quotes here:
this quotes was under a paragraph called "Usage" so i added that richard dawkins regards himself as cultural Christian in more than one interview, this quotes is in article called "cultural Christian" if this not the place for this quotes that the media mention it and as healine, and backed with sources then where is the place?.
I mean i added a quotes about well-known figure called himself Cultural Christian under paragraph called Usage it in article called Cultural Christian, Can you explain to me how it's is extreme minor significance for topic of article? and trivial to mention it.--Jobas (talk) 23:39, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- Agree with User:Dominus Vobisdu, WP:UNDUE applies here and this should not be added to this article. User is trying to shoehorn this into several articles, see Talk:Richard Dawkins#Cultural Christian. Heiro 00:10, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not doing someting wrong i'm not adding a misleading information, my edit was backed with at least three sources and video (from BBC and Charleston site), you didn't give me a reason why should be remove, why not to add it. We are not in article of Richard Dawkins where maybe it's not "important" to add it. we are in article called Cultural Christian i added a quotes about well-known figure called himself "Cultural Christian" under paragraph called Usage, here there is a connection between the quotes and the subject of the article, maybe that wasn't in R.D article but we are in Cultural Christian article, and i'm not claiming anything far from what Dawkins cited, do you have a convincing reason why should not be included?--Jobas (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- @Jobas:Find a reliable source on the topic of Cultural Christianity that discusses R.D. in sufficient detail to establish that R.D. is significant for this topic, and we have something to talk about. What you've given us is basically your own original research based on your own assessment of the signficance of R.D. to the topic, not that of a reliable independent secondary source. The burden is on YOU to show that the incident you want to mention is more than just trivia, and to provide reliable independent secondary sources to back that up. Just so you know, the sources you have provided so far do little to establish noteworthiness. You may want to review our policies, especially WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Any argument that you make that does not comply with those policies is likely to be ignored. And read WP:BRD and WP:3RR, too. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:39, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
ok i see, but just a question my edit is different from what he said? and the sentences below is not conider to be reliable? this intersting that BBC is not a noteworthiness source!!!
BBC: ""This is historically a Christian country. I'm a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims. "So, yes, I like singing carols along with everybody else. I'm not one of those who wants to purge our society of our Christian history. "If there's any threat these sorts of things, I think you will find it comes from rival religions and not from atheists."
- interview previewing his speech at Charleston College in South Carolina: Cultural Anglican, right? Yes, I guess I'm a cultural Anglican. But to tie that to belief about the origin of the universe, the origin of life, the nature of life, et cetera, is clearly ridiculous, and I don't think that the advantages of getting together once a week and singing together or something like that — insofar as that has community-building advantages, it most certainly does not need to go with fundamental beliefs about the cosmos. Those are separate and to be treated separately.
- : ".... I mean, many people call themselves Jews, including Herb Silverman. He's a Jewish atheist. He identifies with Jewish culture, believes he's a part of the Jewish tradition, and that's valuable. I guess I'm a cultural Christian".
- None of those sources are about cultural Christianity, and none of them establish that R.D.'s comments are significant to the topic of cultural Christianity. That conclusion was your own, and that's what original research means. Please read the policies I listed above. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:08, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- yes that' rigth but the quotes was under a paragraph called "Usage" and i added a quotes from well-known figure that "used" this term. my edit had at least a contention with the the paragraph. and the topic of Cultural Christian is talk about a is a individual who still significantly identifies with Christian culture, and even give a example about Napoleon and various Founding Fathers of the United States, (is there study assessment of the signficance of napoleon or Founding Fathers of the United States with cultural christianity???) my edit is not far away from the content of the article. can you give me a reliable source cited that quotes was a trivia comment and R.D didn't mean it or misunderstood. --Jobas (talk) 01:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- the article give a example about Napoleon and various Founding Fathers of the United States, (is there study assessment of the signficance of napoleon or Founding Fathers of the United States with cultural christianity???) my edit is not far away from the content of the article. can you give me a reliable source cited that quotes was a trivia comment and R.D didn't mean it or misunderstood.--Jobas (talk) 01:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
in Anthropological Journal of European Cultures :http://books.google.co.il/books?id=IsOTtxVRIiUC&pg=PA284&dq=cultural+christian+richard+dawkins&hl=iw&sa=X&ei=oGpjUe_mO-be7Abbn4Fg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=cultural%20christian%20richard%20dawkins&f=false "From a Darwinist perspective, militant atheist and “cultural Christian” richard Dawkins".--Jobas (talk) 01:45, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps you failed to notice the "scare quotes" around the words "cultural Christian". They are there for a reason. And it's not a discussion, just a vety brief mention. Again, please read our policies. Everything I, and the other editors you have been discussing with, will make perfect sense once you understand our policies. And you're arguments will make sense to us.
- The material on the Founding Fathers is supported by reliable independent secondary sources. The material you want to add is not. This is all abundantly explained in WP POLICIES, which I suggest you read poste haste, before wasting any more of time. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- The material on the Founding Fathers and Napoleon is supported by sources which just mention that they where a deists and natural religionists who considered themselves Christians, There is no reach or study that assessment of the signficance of napoleon or Founding Fathers of the United States with cultural christianity and "source" is not discuss about the topic of "Cultural Christianity", is just mention that they consider themself as christians desptie thier view on divinity of Jesus and christian dogma.--Jobas (talk) 06:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
- The operative words here are independent and secondary. The sources for the founding fathers are both. Yours are not. Also, if we wanted to, we could easily find a lot more sources for the founding fathers. The subject of their relationship to cultural Christianity has been discussed at great length by many scholars, and they are extremely important figures in the relationship between non-believers and Christians. I highly doubt that any scholar has discussed R.D.'s "cultural Christianity" at length. The one source you dug up mentioned it only tangentially, and then, only using "scare quotes". And R.D. is a pissant in comparison to the founding fathers as far as this topic is concerned. That is what undue weight means. Again, if you took the time to read our policies, you would understand why what you are trying to do is not allowed. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 07:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Different Chinese meaning
A cursory glance at some sources seems to indicate that the phrase translated as "cultural Christian" in Chinese (Chinese: 刘小枫) has a different meaning than given in this "Cultural Christian" article. Specifically, the phrase seems to be used to describe those who affirm Christian belief, but do not affiliate with a congregation. I do not have sufficiently clear sources to verify. Can anyone confirm or deny this definition? If it is correct, then the entire China section should probably be removed from this page. Daask (talk) 14:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)