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|This article contains a translation of Grafschaft Mark from de.wikipedia. Translated on January 23, 2007.|
"Earl" is not a category that can be applied here. A new better title is needed. --Wetman 02:05, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I reccomend County as it is more universal than the British Earl.
In the majority of texts that I have seen, "the Mark" refers to the "Mark Brandenburg" (Kurmark, Mittelmark). Although the Westphalian region in question may be referred to as "the Mark" in German (die Mark), that practice has not carried over into English, in which it is predominantly called "Mark" or the "County of Mark".
If desired, I can duplicate here how Mark is referred to in the books in my current possession. Olessi 19:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- Any objections to restoring it to the previous title of County of Mark? Olessi 18:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- I personally would prefer the current title or something that eliminates the matter altogether. Charles 18:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Simply calling it "Mark" may sound bizarre since it refers to an entity, but that is indeed how that state is usually called. "Mark" primarily is used in a historical sense; the present-day territory of the historical state does not seem to be called "Mark" (aside from the Märkischer Kreis) in the way that the historical Osterland of Thuringia is still used as a geographical term (de:Osterland). With that in mind, Mark (state) seems redundant as it was always a county, unlike the various historical states of Baden or Saxony. Mark (region) also seems unnecessary, as it is not used present-day, AFAIK. The remaining alternatives are "County of Mark" or "County of the Mark", and the former is used more frequently. Olessi 19:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- The area is still occasionally called "Mark" today (more frequently used in the adjective form das Märkische). I am unclear why there would be an article in English "County of the Mark", since there is no article in the German form, Grafschaft Mark. Chl 04:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Chl, would you say that the present-day territory of the medieval county is still called "Mark" often enough for this article to warrant the title Mark (region), or would this article best be served by having "County" in the title? Olessi 15:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- Personally, I prefer to avoid parentheses if possible. Using the word County won't cause any confusion even if it isn't a county anymore. Chl 17:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- I would prefer to RM to be done, but for the request to be for the title you propose, rather than moving the page then requesting another move. Charles 03:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have initiated a move proposal as per your request. Olessi 04:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The county was not seperated from the Duchy or more correct from the County of Berg in 1160. It is only the year of a distribution of the estates of the family of Berg into a Branch in Altena (Berg-Altena) and the main Line Berg. At that time the possions of the German nobility were a collection of punctual rights and estates, the forming of territories wasn't realy started then, as you might recognise by the simple fact of the many distribution of estates in the 12. and 13. century. The village Mark, which lend its name to the family and the county, wasn't even in the possession of the Berg family, it was held by members of the Family of Rüdenberg until it was sold either to the Archbishop of Cologne or the Father of the first count of Mark, (that is uncertain in Literature) Adolf I. puer comes de marca as he was named after 1200. He inherited a part of the county of Altena and the lands and rights of his father arround the village Mark (today part of the City of Hamm) where his father had build the Castle Mark. Castle Mark became Adolfs new main House. The other part of Altena was in the hands of a colletral line, the Isenbergs named after their new main castle Isenberg near Hattingen. Frederick (Friedrich) of Isenberg or Altena-Isenberg ambushed his close Kinsmen Engelbert of Berg Archbishop of Cologne, Reichsverweser of the HRE and Count of Berg near Gevelsberg. The Archbishop was killed and Fredick was accused and sentenced for murder after a wild escape to Rome, where he had hoped to gain pardon by the Pope himself. On his way back he was captured and brought to cologne. There he was bound on the breaking wheel for execution before the Severins gate and later cut in to four parts. The Familynames of Altena and Isenberg became dishonored (entehrt und verfehmt) and they were seldom or even not longer used. The main Castle of the Isenberg branch and town and Castle of Nienbrügge (old german for Newbridge) had to be destroyed. The latter was executed by Adolf I. de la Mark, he resetteld the people of Neienbrügge in the angle between Lippe and Ahse about two up the Lippe river. The new settlement became the old german/saxon name for an angle between rivers Ham(m). Adolf as a vassal to the Archbishops of Cologne and Dukes of Westphalia could, as one of the executers of the verdict against the possessions of the Isenbergs, save his possessions and regained most parts of the rights and possesions of the former Counts of Altena-Isenberg. Due to this action he nealy doubled his estates. Even the other family branch in Mark, especially Adolf I. no lnger used the Title of Altena. The Son of Frederick and his legal guardians fought against Adolf for over a decade to regain the families possessions. In the 1240ies they came to an arangement which formed the very small County of Limburg, and Mark lost the scattered properties north of the Lippe river to the former Isenberg family, now the family of Limburg.
The county was formed out of the County Altena, the former Rüdenberg properties arround the village Mark between Lippe and Ahse, the HRE possessions near Schwerte (Westhoven) and other scattered properties of the family and parts of the Duchy Westphalia arround the City of Soest.
That is the long version why i have deleted the date 1160 and the Duchy of Berg as parent territory for the County of Mark. Time permitting i will ad this information to the article, please feel free to find the citings in literature and add it by yourself. --Gabriel-Royce (talk) 09:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)